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What about categories for next years MTB season?
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| bobby |
Posted on 28-07-2010 12:55
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Posts: 844
Joined: 22.02.08
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Looking at the standard of riders in the various categories, Vets, Masters, Experts and some of the Elites, we have quite a big bunch of riders all at a similar standard.
It would make a really competitive category if more of these riders where together in a race.
In Team Worc we have quite few riders who would have great races together but are split up, from the start.
I'd suggest dropping the elite category for next year, bringing in category A or 1 or whatever, reduced distance races..aiming at maybe 1hr40 min, about 10-15 min longer than current vet expert master races and shorter than the current elite races.
International riders with Elite on their licences could still race these, though personally I would sit them out if that all seemed a bit unfair. Elites would be sacrificed a bit but your talking about 2 possibly 3 riders being affected, me included, and we go away for our higher standard racing anyhow. Ryan you'd back me up this i'm sure.
You would or might probably need to go back to the relevant age categories for the national championships, but thats not a big deal
Might also get over the current Elite, Master/Vet thing where Master riders shouldn't be competing in elite events and dropping back for one race.
Would just make for better races, Vinnie and Paddy should be competing with Oisin and Adam and Sean and Matt.
Not sure who goes in, but our riders would be up for it/i'd make sure they rode in it.
You could expand this further by going back and adding a 2nd or B category and 3rd and so on.
Move away from the arbitrary age categories a bit.
Bob |
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| The Man |
Posted on 28-07-2010 14:38
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Posts: 10
Joined: 03.03.08
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Sounds like an idea that would work,I think it would make for closer racing for all, |
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| Tonyk |
Posted on 28-07-2010 15:05
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Posts: 33
Joined: 11.09.09
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Defo needs some discussion Robin.
At the end of a race there is usually a big gap between riders. After the race you look at the times to see 3-4 lads in a different cat have done same times. Would be nice to race all the way to the end.
There are a couple of lads in my club that i would love to race head to head but they are in different cats, at present it's more like a time trial.
Here is another Idea.
Why not have one overall category (Excluding Elites) but within that a rider can win the age group category aswell. Elites start 1 min earlier and do an extra lap. Everybody else does same no of laps and the fastest wins regardless of category. If he is also a vet or a master then he wins that aswell. It would need a long filter loop to prevent bottlenecks.
EG Oisin wins. Johnny McCabe gets 2nd. a 25yr old gets 3rd
Oisin get winners trophy and masters trophy.
Johnny gets 2nd place trophy and Vets winners trophy
25yr old gets 3rd place tropy.
Maybe trial some different formats at the regional races earlier in the yearLeinster,Munster ETC.
Just another idea
Edited by Tonyk on 28-07-2010 15:13 |
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| GregMay |
Posted on 28-07-2010 15:33
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Posts: 579
Joined: 08.10.08
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Only issue with that would be course design. Race orginisers would need alonger intro to the first section of ST to stretch out the group.
Not an issue persay, but a comment, personally think its a good idea. But then again i like riding bikes around and around for 12 hours so...
Personally i think we need to go like the road. *awaits abuse* Catagories based on points, you move up and down, its fairer. It has its flaws yes, but it works.
Then again, i'd rather it was like CX where we all just MTFU and raced and then sorted it at the end, but back to point 1.
The Not Points Series may actually rock this year! |
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| sean |
Posted on 28-07-2010 15:46
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Posts: 40
Joined: 09.05.08
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Not sure I like that idea so much Tony - it's painful enough starting behind 70 Masters without adding Vets etc to the equation, would lead to carnage. I'd argue that Irish courses are at capacity with the numbers at present, most would need a lot of work on start loops etc to thin out the numbers.
Good idea for a topic though, and definitely something that needs discussion. About to make the jump up from Expert, so something I've been thinking about lately too, mostly that as a tail-end elite I'd only be as fast as the top Vet & Masters and battling to keep them off my tail more than competitive as an elite, on current form.
I think Robin's Elite-lite idea is pretty good. The last few year's leading Experts have avoided the step up to elites by conveniently turning 30 and qualifying for Masters, which makes for great Masters racing but not good for pushing the elite numbers, and from what I can guess, the jump to Elite is getting bigger as there's not much going on at the back end of the cat.
An elite-lite cat of the current elites (less the top few internationals) plus the top 3-5 from Expert, Masters & Vets in 1 cat would give very close racing throughout the season. 5-20th Expert, Masters & Vets in Cat2 and everyone below, including guys stepping up from Sports in Cat3. Proper points-based upgrading too.
Scrap the age grading, sure the older guys are the fastest anyway :/
Would put us out of sync with UCI/other nations in that the top cat would be slightly sub-elite, but to the handful that that's important to, the local races matter less...
Edited by sean on 28-07-2010 15:47 |
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| mtbireland |
Posted on 28-07-2010 16:42
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Posts: 1329
Joined: 16.02.08
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make sports one lap more and get rid of experts...! just a thought..! expert numbers were well down this year as were Elites... If elite winner was winning in 1:40 wouldnt' be so difficult for half the experts to race elites...
Biking is good for you....... |
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| john_tomac |
Posted on 28-07-2010 17:15
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Posts: 284
Joined: 18.02.08
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eh, as I have said before, there are only 2 or 3 elites, and they dont race here much at all......
cat 1, 2 & 3....based on ability.....thats very fair.....it would be great racing to the first corner with Kev, aidan, james, evan, vinny, etc......same goes for cat 2 and 3, all ability......
My boss entered the masters nationals, racing in the same race as James, not ability based, stupid IMO. |
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| Tonyk |
Posted on 28-07-2010 22:58
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Posts: 33
Joined: 11.09.09
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I like the Idea of elite lites but it is still only a small number of riders on the whole.
Next year for example I will be vets with only 10-20 or so in my class. I should be mid field by my times but the the thought of going to a race with only 15 in it doesn't really appeal.
The grid system has worked well I think, and could be extended to the top 20 or 30. I mashed the gears and ended up at the back of the masters bunch going into the forest at the nationals, its sorts itself out pretty quick. The guns should have the legs to get away.
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| RichardL |
Posted on 29-07-2010 08:21
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Posts: 42
Joined: 28.01.09
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john_tomac wrote:
eh, as I have said before, there are only 2 or 3 elites, and they dont race here much at all......
cat 1, 2 & 3....based on ability.....thats very fair.....it would be great racing to the first corner with Kev, aidan, james, evan, vinny, etc......same goes for cat 2 and 3, all ability......
My boss entered the masters nationals, racing in the same race as James, not ability based, stupid IMO.
I agree entirely! The current system makes no sense - there are 3 classes where the top riders in each are of similar standard, middle ranked riders of similar standard etc. I know that at the NPSs I end up riding with the slower riders of each class around me - we would be much better racing against each other in the same class! Having said that the only way it will work is if there is some sort of "promotion and relegation" system in place! |
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| mtbireland |
Posted on 29-07-2010 10:16
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Posts: 1329
Joined: 16.02.08
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the only way it will work is if there is some sort of "promotion and relegation" system in place!
wouldn't be hard to have a points based system in place for this... All results are in digital format now. I'm sure Gar could whip up an application for this. Would be great to have it online... an extra incentive to do well. An overall league table kind of thing... although would you enforce relegation?
Biking is good for you....... |
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| GregMay |
Posted on 29-07-2010 11:14
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Posts: 579
Joined: 08.10.08
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To enforce it you do it like the road
You have a catagory for the start of the year. When you ammas enough points to move up, CI contact you, and you get bumped (however mostly as people strive to move up unlike MTB they actually get onto CI first)
CI issue a new number based on your grade (diff colours for a, a1, a2 etc) and then you go to races.
Easiest way would be for us to go ala IMRA and have a DESIGNATED NUMBER for the season.
The Not Points Series may actually rock this year! |
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| Philip |
Posted on 29-07-2010 12:04
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Posts: 141
Joined: 19.02.08
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The question remains, would you enforce RELEGATION?.
I'd have to say no. I only get home for a few races a year so would be a prime candidate for relegation and wouldn't be interested in racing in Cat. 2 as described above.
Optional relegation. You get made aware that you can downgrade if you wish but aren't obliged to do so. |
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| mtbireland |
Posted on 29-07-2010 12:07
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Posts: 1329
Joined: 16.02.08
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yes indeed....
You could use race results from thsi year to decide who should go where... would you have four cats to keep it he same as the road...? with 200 riders at a race you could get around 50 in each cat..... currently there are five... What about the women...just two cats?
Biking is good for you....... |
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| GregMay |
Posted on 29-07-2010 12:47
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Posts: 579
Joined: 08.10.08
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Relegation is a tough one. I'd say if you dont race for an entire year in a category you probably should be dropped down as there should also be a capped limit on the number of riders per category.
So lets say in 2010 you become a Cat 1 rider, you dont race at all in 2011 (XC, CX, whatever), come 2012 you go to Cat 2. This free's up a spot for another rider.
Not so important in the upper fields, but in the C 3 C 4 there will be people trying to move up. Other main point is you should not be allowed to refuse an upgrade. if you get moved to C1 you race C1. No 'ohh my spleen hurts today i'm racing C2'
Race organiser would need to enforce this, and hence it should be recorded in a designated number format, available to all.
The Not Points Series may actually rock this year! |
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| RichardL |
Posted on 29-07-2010 13:01
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Posts: 42
Joined: 28.01.09
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Philip wrote:
The question remains, would you enforce RELEGATION?.
I don't think it would be essential to enforce "relegation" - if people want to remain at a higher level fair enough! My guess is that the big issue will be the people who don't want to be moved up ....... "I've hardly ridden at all this season" ...... "I'm just recovering from injury" ...... "I like standing on the podium!!" etc |
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| john_tomac |
Posted on 29-07-2010 16:07
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Posts: 284
Joined: 18.02.08
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yeah, people like to 'win'. I did a cross race in california a couple of years ago, it was ridiculous. Cats for everyone. started at 9am, finished at 3pm, 8 people in each race, elites, exports, feckin over 200kg fat lesbian cat.....stupid...
cat 1,2 & 3, simple. Dont demote people. Maybe only promote from one year to the next. |
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| mtbireland |
Posted on 29-07-2010 16:16
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Posts: 1329
Joined: 16.02.08
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you need four cats to break up the field..... but agree promote ...and it is compulsory to move up once you hit the critera...and agree no mid year promotion but people can move up if they want...
Biking is good for you....... |
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| Christopher Cross |
Posted on 29-07-2010 16:45
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Posts: 117
Joined: 06.10.08
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Good Thread this. Lots of good ideas. Shorter Cat1 races - yes. Better for the working man, and the average Joe.
I agree with Greg. Go with what the roadies do.
Its not perfect but it works most of the time.
I also agree with issuing a number for the year. Better for the environment if nothing else.
On the road, appeals can be made to committee to get yourself promoted or relegated.
It is the night. My body's weak.
I'm on the run. No time to sleep.
I've got to ride, ride like the wind to be free again. |
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| GregMay |
Posted on 29-07-2010 19:55
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Posts: 579
Joined: 08.10.08
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Unless your Bren W and just like whining about how cats are to hard.. as you move to Vets and destroy people...but i digress....
Number for the Cross season?? Start off based on nationals from last year? GRIDDING.....
The Not Points Series may actually rock this year! |
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| oisin |
Posted on 03-08-2010 09:02
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Posts: 6
Joined: 27.02.08
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I agree that a change in the categories would be good. Age based doesn't make sense and just separates riders of similar ability who would enjoy racing each other as people have already said above. The points based promotion seems fair and seems to work in other disciplines/sports.
Also shorter cat 1 races would give a good race for the majority who work/have kids etc. and are trying to juggle everything. |
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